The Rat Utopia Experiment with Phia Lane

Interview by Carolina Hernandez

I caught up with Phia Lane just as videos from The Rat Utopia Experiment started blowing up on the internet. Even with all the chaos around her lately, she still felt super grounded and fun to talk to. We spoke about growing up around music, dealing with misogyny in heavier music spaces, and how strange it feels watching people from all over the world suddenly connect with her lyrics online. To her, punk is about standing for something and speaking up. Phia kept coming back to one idea she wanted people, especially young women, to hear: be loud, take up space, and don’t let people make you feel small for speaking your mind.

Nice to meet you. Finally!
I know, right? Oh, my goodness.

So, today’s interview is for a magazine called Fantom. And I like to say it’s like Thrasher, but for roller skating. Have you ever been to a skatepark before? Have you tried skating?
Yes. I have tried skateboarding.

Oh, really? Do you like it?
Yep. I worked on it for months, and I couldn’t even ollie. But actually, I do like skateboarding. Just riding on it is fun.

Nice. We need to get you into roller skating, then. I think you will love it.
I think I would be so much better at that.

Well, so you were telling me earlier that you just came back from school. How does a normal day look for you?
Well, lately it’s been crazy. I have school, so I have to go every day at 12:30. I guess I’m gone for two hours. So that’s the chunk of my day. And then lately, when I get home, I have to edit the music video we’ve been working on. So, I’ve been working on that a bit every day. And I’ve also been working on merch lately. So, I do like a bit of creative stuff every day. And then I’ve also been making posters for people. So that’s like my normal day. And then I’ll always have dinner with my parents because we like watching ghost shows. And then if we’re not having rehearsal, which is usually in the evenings, like around six, if we’re not having rehearsal, I like playing video games because I’m still a teenager, guys. I’m sorry. I play video games at night.

I love that. What is your favorite video game right now? What are you playing now?
I’m back in my Minecraft phase. It’s so basic. It’s been so fun.

I think it’s crazy how big that is everywhere.
I know, right? It’s like every few months, I get back into it.

Simple, creative, you get to do whatever you want, you know?
I love it. That’s my childhood game.

I love that. Oh, how old are you?
I’m 17. I’m turning 18 in two months. Big moment.

It is a big moment. It’s very exciting. So, I was going to ask you, where did the Rat Utopia Project start? Like, what got you into music? How did it start?
It was kind of weird because, like, growing up, I didn’t really care about doing music. I didn’t care about doing music because my dad’s a musician. And so, when I was younger, he was always doing local shows, so my mom and I were always going to support him and stuff. And for the longest, he used to do a cover of “Gold on the Ceiling” by the Black Keys. And I thought it was his song because he always played it. But, like, that was what I was around growing up. And every second of every day, the Beatles were playing in our house. But the thought never crossed my mind to do it myself, like, ever. But then, when I was 12, I started taking piano lessons because it was kind of just something to do. I was younger, so I did a lot of random stuff. Like, I did karate. I was on a swim team. And then I played piano. So, I was just doing random stuff. But I ended up liking piano. But I was getting really irritated because the songs we were learning, I didn’t want to learn them. I wanted to learn my own stuff. So that kind of led me to doing vocal lessons with this really nice teacher named Circa. And I knew I met her because my dad used to mentor at a music summer camp program. So, he knew all these local musicians. So, I was doing vocals with her, and she told me, “You’re really good and really creative. You should try doing the music summer camp programs.” I was 12, and the starting age for it was like 12 to 18. It was just for kids. So, I was like, okay, let’s give it a shot. And then this is around the time when I was starting to find the music I liked, because my mom really likes 90’s music, and my dad really likes 60’s music. So, I started finding those bands. Like, what bands do I really like? I got really into Nirvana and stuff, and I joined my first band at 12. It was called Hot Stepmom. And a funny story there is that you do an evaluation and they put you in with people you think you’d work well with. And I kept telling the guy, his name is Skye Warden, and he’s great. I still work with him. I kept telling him I really liked punk music and rock music, but that wasn’t true. I knew no punk music. I don’t know why I kept saying that. So, they put me in this band, and I was like, “Why am I saying I like punk music? Because I got put in this band with these older people. Not crazy old, but the oldest guy was four years older than me. And so, when I was 12, and he was like, 16 or something? I was like, scared of him. I was like, whoa, he’s so old. He’s only 16. But, you know, it was like that. And I got scared because they were saying all these bands I didn’t know, like Suicidal Tendencies. I didn’t know who these people were. And there was this group to my side when we were meeting, and it was this really cool girl. And I was like, can you put me with them instead? I’m scared. Like, I’m 12. I don’t know what’s going on.

[Laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so that was the best decision of my life, actually, because the girl’s name was Anna Norris, and she’s still playing a hot stepmom today, but, like, she had already been doing music for a while, and I was brand new, so I got to be a lead singer alongside her, which is. I know that’s kind of unusual, but we were in a rock band with two lead singers, and we’re both fronting, so she taught me stage presence, and I think she really also… She was a beautiful singer, so she really helped me work on my voice and everything. And I also got to work with someone who already knew songwriting, but she was around my age. She was just a little bit older than me, so she was just like. It was such a good, perfect experience. So, then a year later, I did the program again, and I was ready to do my own band this time. I was like, okay, I’m going to be the lead singer. I’ll write the songs this time. Like, I’m going to do my own thing. Anna really helped me. And what’s funny is I ended up getting placed with the exact same people I’d been scared of a year prior.

Damn! Okay.
But that ended up being the right utopia experiment. So that’s how that started. And I was like, I’m 13 now. I’m not scared of them anymore. And we ended up naming the band that because when I was around 7th or 8th grade, I was slacking off in English class. Guys, I promise I’m doing well in school, but I was slacking off in English class and watching a video called Down the Rabbit Hole - The Mouse Utopia experiment. It was a real thing where they put a bunch of mice together to study overpopulation, and it was reflected in animal cruelty practices. They were studying that. And then also overpopulation and prisons. They were using that because the mice had everything they needed. So it was a utopia. But there were so many mice that they all went crazy! Cannibalizing. They turned gay for some reason; it’s unusual mouse behavior, obviously. I was in 8th grade. I was like, man, that’d be such a cool band name. And if you changed mouse to rat, the acronym would spell true. That would be so tough.

Yeah, that’s so cool! I was thinking about the acronym.
I was like, that’s so, so tough. And that’s what we ended up doing. And then, around this time, I actually started getting into punk music. And because now I was around these guys who actually knew what punk music was, because my dad and my mom showed me a lot of music, but they didn’t really care about the punk side of it too much. So that’s where I got that from. These people. And. Yeah. And it’s actually only one of the guys from back then who is still in the band. We’ve gone through a lot of member changes, but it was cool. Those were my beginnings, my roots. I’ve been doing music for like six years, and True for five of those.

Talking about female musicians. Which ones are like some of your references or inspirations?
Jessicka Adams is my biggest inspiration. That is the Jack Off Jill singer. She’s my biggest inspiration. My favorite project of hers is Scarling because it just inspired me so much. Like the sound, it’s real, it’s so dirty. But the way she sings is so light over it. I love Jessicka Adams and everything she stands for. She speaks out for women who have been victims of sexual abuse and everything. I love her so much. She’s my favorite, absolute top music inspiration and just like, like figure in general. I love what she stands for.

That’s pretty dope. Well, literally, exactly what you stand for. Like I’ve seen you support trans youth. You obviously support female rebellion, and you know, giving a voice. So, tell me a little more about that.
I have so many best friends that are super close to me, and they’re just all different people. Like, my very, very, very best friend in the whole world is a trans man. So, I will always speak up for trans youth because I know exactly how that is for him. We’ve talked about it so much, and I’ve tried to help him so much. And then my very best friends, Camara and Wendy, are black women. And then my other best friend is Filipino. We talk about politics and everything together all the time. And I’ve got to credit them too cause they’ve really shaped me, and they’re literally my best friends in the whole world. They’re so supportive. And so, I’m seeing all these different women, all these different people I’m friends with. And I need to advocate for them, too, if I’m able to have a platform. Because obviously I’m a girl. And there’s part of that being a girl, where I’m always going to be looked down on a little bit. And that makes me so mad. But also, I’m a white girl, and so unfortunately, that does give me more of a standing because unfortunately, people are racist as fuck. As I’ve grown older, I guess I’ve gotten angrier because, you know, when you’re a kid, I guess I didn’t really maybe realize some of that stuff, or when you get older as a woman, people start treating you weirder and worse. And especially some stuff that happened a few months ago with the band and everything was very eye opening, like it clicked for me. Like, people really see women this way. And it’s like I have to do something; I have to speak out. I want to be visceral. I want to make people uncomfortable because that’s how they make women and minorities feel. So that’s like, over time it’s just gotten, you know, as you get older, you experience more of the world. And I’m getting out more and everything like that. So, it’s just like, what I stand for is that we need to believe women. We need to believe people of color. We need to believe these people because oftentimes they are so much more demonized and we are so much more demonized. And so, what I’m trying to do is advocate for, like, you guys need to listen to what people are saying. Like, you need to stop dismissing people. And that’s really important, especially what’s going on in the world right now, like, incredibly important. So that’s kind of especially, like, with our newest song. It’s just gotten more and more. I’ve been like, I’m done, like, dancing over it and using too many metaphors in my songs and stuff. I’m like, I need people to understand this is what I’m talking about.

You can tell it in your music, in your lyrics, and in the videos you post online. Have you felt that the shows are a safe space for your audience? Do they connect with you through the music?
Yes, I’m on stage, and it’s the audience, but also, we’re all still peers at the end of the day. All these people are still my age. So, I’m joking with people, and I’m just talking to people, and it’s just normal because, yes, I’m performing, but also, we’re all just people when we’re all just at the show right now. Because sometimes I’m in the crowd and sometimes I’m on stage. So, I try to make the show feel like a safe, fun space where the audience can have a lot of interaction, and I can actually get to meet people and stuff, because I never want to. I don’t want to be that band that’s just like, on stage, and we’re just performing, and it’s like, not even like we’re thinking we’re better than everybody else. But I don’t like the barrier
between band and audience. Like, I want us to be connected so people can really feel what I’m saying and, like, know me. And my music. So that’s why I try to make it feel like we’re interacting and having fun with friends. It’s a safe space for us to do whatever we want here.

I just remember hearing one of your previous interviews where you said anything can be punk. And I think like that’s such a cool fucking statement. So, you want to build on that a bit more?
I’m going to shout out a band in the area, Catica, I love them. And they’re not really a punk band because let’s say, just imagine what punk you think punk should sound like. And usually, people kind of like imagine like a hardcore punk or like the, you know, Suicidal Tendencies, Descendants, Misfits. It’s that kind of punk. But Catica is super gothic, basically, kind of like an electronic goth cool thing they’re doing. But to me, they’re one of the most punk bands in the scene because they speak out, they have a very clear message about… about supporting people in need, about speaking out about what’s going on in the world, politically and everything. They’re super political, and they’re not afraid to speak their minds. Even though it’s not punk music, it’s very punk music. And so that’s like. I think that’s a really good example. And especially like you got to consider other genres, like folk punk, especially too. Like, it doesn’t sound like punk, but it’s still punk. I think if you have an important message that you’re standing on, that just makes you punk. That just makes it punk, you know. So Catica is one of the most punk bands of the scene, and they’re not even punk music. I mean, they’re great.

Do you have any pre-show rituals? I know you do your makeup for the shows and all the stuff. How is it for the band?
The pre-show ritual is that we don’t have one, and it’s just super chaotic before the show. Because I feel like we’re always scrambling at the last minute. It’s like my dad comes up, you know, he’s kind of our manager. He’ll keep us organized. He’s like, you’re going on in like an hour. You’re going to start the makeup. And I’m like, shoot, I got to start the makeup. So, I feel like we’re always running around. If I had to choose a pre-show ritual, it would be doing the makeup. Because, you know, before the show we kind of get scattered where we’re talking to different bands and hanging out with whatever friends. I’m doing everybody’s makeup, and we make sure we’re doing the makeup as we do at every show, you know, so. And I think that’s kind of like our nice little ritual where we all get to hang out. We talk about what we’re going to do on the show, and I just get everybody ready. And my guitarist boyfriend also helps me with the makeup. So, we do it together, and it’s a lot of fun.

I love that. What is the weirdest place you have written lyrics?
Oh my god. Probably my Spanish notebook. I feel like I was in class writing lyrics. That’s what was happening. Back when I had full-time school, my last class of the day was Spanish. And I hated that class just because it was so boring. I was pretty good at Spanish, too. The teacher was boring. So, I would sit back there, and basically half of my Spanish notebook was actually just lyrics, and I still have it. And it had lyrics to like cool Sunday schizophrenia and part-whole and everything. So, I used to write lyrics at school. I feel like that’s probably the weirdest place I could imagine that I’ve done that.

I love that! Don’t throw it away.
I hope so. I always keep my notebooks.

So, earlier, you mentioned that being a woman in the music industry, especially in heavier music spaces, has been more challenging for you. What’s something about being a young woman in music that people still underestimate?
Well, it’s so weird. And I’ve noticed this very recently after we went through some member changes. It was the weirdest thing. People started saying, “Oh, the band was better, the music was better when the good members were in it, and the music used to be better.” And that confused me because I was writing the music and it hadn’t changed at all. And I was like, huh? And it made me realize, in all the male bands, people automatically assume the lead singer writes the music. But when the front is a girl, you suddenly know it must be the whole band writing the music. She can’t be doing it on her own, or she’s not doing it all. And I saw people telling the band, sometimes they say some bullshit, like, you’ve got to get a new vocalist or something. And I’m like, well, if they get a new vocalist, nobody’s writing the songs. And I feel like that’s the thing, something people often underestimate, which is the weirdest thing to me because I write all the lyrics and I’ve had a little bit of help on the lyrics before. But when people contribute, like, all the work I’m doing to people in the past or to other members, I’m like, that’s so confusing to me because I’ve always been vocal about this: this is my messaging. I’m writing these lyrics. And it’s still like group messaging because they all believe in what I’m writing together. And we get ideas from each other. And also, what I hear a lot is that it’s cringy punk or something like that. I don’t think we’re crazy heavy, but I think we’re still a heavy punk band. And I feel like if it were being sung by a guy, we would get compared to a law dispute a lot. And I’m like, so that’s heavy to you guys? And that’s punk. But when it’s me singing, it’s not heavy. It’s like, as soon as it’s a woman, it has to be cringier, or she’s not doing it. And it’s all that. It’s that underestimation of what a woman can do or what she should be allowed to do, I guess. That’s the most frustrating part about it for me. It is me doing it. And sorry, guys, music hasn’t changed.

Absolutely! I think at some point it’s quite offensive, like, dude, come on.
When I have help writing the songs, I always give credit to that person. Like, “Lobotomize Me.” I’ve been getting a lot of credit for it because that’s the song that just went viral. But those are his riffs in the verse, in the chorus. And the lobotomize me line was his. So, I took that line, and then I made the entire song, the whole story, all the lyrics. And so, he helped me with that. But I also want people to understand that it’s still my story, with my lyrics, concepts, and stuff. So, it can be very frustrating sometimes.

You’re so right. Sometimes the labels change a lot just because you’re a woman. And that sucks big time. Are there any festivals or specific places you dream of playing?
Oh, ever since I was young, I wanted to play the Paramount. The Paramount Seattle, because, as I said, I really like Nirvana. That was the band that got me into going down the rabbit hole of what music I wanted to play. And they had the Live at the Paramount video. And I like, sat down one night. I was eating dinner. I just watched the whole thing. I was just like, you know, I was like 12 or 13. I was just like, this is the craziest, coolest performance I’ve ever seen in my life. I have to play this venue one day. I want to be like them. It’s still the same. I could dream of a bigger venue now that I just know more venues, but it’s just like, that was just what I wanted to do as a kid. And I still want to play the Paramount so badly.

Okay, so I’ve seen your social media posts, and I think they’re blowing up. And it’s amazing because at some point, that thing is a tool, you know? But I wanted to ask, how is your relationship with the internet, and how do these, like, creative, cool videos come to life?
My relationship with the internet, if I had to say, as a whole, is really weird because what’s very frustrating about the internet is that, and I’ll be honest, hate comments don’t really bother me. Like, I just don’t care what you think. So, sometimes I delete them if they’re being weird about me being a girl in that kind of inappropriate way. You know what I mean? But if they’re just, like, hating, then I just leave them because I’m like, I don’t care. Yeah, but it’s frustrating to see people hide anonymously. And people are so comfortable saying just the most vile stuff. But there’s a lot more love than hate on those videos we’ve been putting out recently. And so that’s what I find really cool. And it’s been cool that on the internet, when I can post these videos, and I get people like, who maybe live on the east coast or live all the way in Australia or something like, stuff like that, sharing stories about why they relate to the lyrics that I’m writing and stuff, everything like that. So, like, I think everybody has that irritation with the internet, with cancel culture and people being anonymous and just saying the most vile stuff, but the fact that so many people get to hear the lyrics helps us so much. I relate to this so much. We hadn’t blown up like that before, but it’s fucking crazy. A little shout-out to Anthony Padilla, who commented on that video. If you don’t know who that is, that’s the guy who ran the Smosh YouTube channel back in the day.

That’s so crazy.
That was crazy. I was like, I love. When my boyfriend and I first started dating, all we did was watch old Smosh. And he commented on that. So that’s another bonus of the internet. Anthony Padilla stole our song. That’s a bonus.

That’s pretty cool. Do you have a last message for readers?
I just want people to understand that, as a woman, people are always going to look down on you, unfortunately. But what you can do is be louder than that. And that’s what I’m trying to do. It’s basically like all these people saying gross, vile stuff about me. I’m like, okay, then my lyrics are going to get even worse, and you’re going to hate them even more. But that’s because I’m writing for women. And so, I think people need to understand that you can do whatever you want as a woman. You just got to be loud as fuck. Because people need to start believing women, and you can make that change. So, yeah, that’s my message. Every woman needs to do what they want to do.

Fuck yes! This was amazing. Thank you so much for your time, Phia.
These were, like, the best questions ever. I had so much fun. It was like the best interview ever. I’m so serious. Thank you so much for wanting to do this.

I’m super excited. And I know this is going to look so good. You’re going to love the magazine, and hopefully, we’ll get you into some roller skating. I think you’re going to really love it.
I would actually love to try roller skating. I know. I took a look at the magazine before the interview, and I love the way the pages look in the interviews and throughout the magazine. All the content was so good. I’m so entertained. So, I’m really excited to be in it too. Like, that’s going to be so awesome.

That’s amazing. And yeah, hopefully you get to try roller skating someday. I think you’re going to love it because it’s like 90% women, and it’s just such a cool space.
Yes. I grew up reading those roller derby graphic novels. With the girl. Main characters. I can’t remember what it was called, but it was my favorite book. So, I should try roller skating. That was part of my childhood, reading those books. That would be so cool.

We’re taking you to the dark side. Just come with us.
Yes. Just for you. I’ll post it to the band page, and everybody’s going to see me fall on my ass.

[Laughs] That’s how you start. Thank you so much, Pia. This was amazing!
You’re amazing!