Nancy Wilson: Music Interview

The power of the legendary duo that makes up the iconic band, Heart, was a first of its kind in the 1970’s. The strong wailing vocals of Ann Wilson tied in with Nancy Wilson’s lead guitar was unyielding. As the two came in full throttle to the scene, the Wilson sisters resembled female empowerment across the board, to say the least. As I sat down with Nancy, all I could think was, We’re not worthy! We’re not worthy! As if I was Garth bowing down to Alice Cooper in Wayne’s World. We both got carried away into a deep conversation as us two rock ‘n’ fucking roll enthusiasts got to talking. It was truly an honor. 

How was the leg of your tour that you were just on?
Surprisingly good, beyond expectations. It was fun to be in those big arenas. At night, in an indoor stage like that, it’s so rock. Some older arenas are so boomy that it’s counterintuitive to play a loud rock show. But we have a really good sound man, so he knows what to do. Cheap Trick are just the coolest guys and the best opening act. We’ve done so many tours with them along the way. So, we’re all just a bunch of dirty shirts together.

Do you have an “at home” feeling while you’re touring?
Having done this for almost 50 years now, there’s a routine that you get down. You have the right people helping you plan how to do it right. The travel is what you really get paid for because it’s never convenient. You never get enough sleep and there’s always bad pizza. But the two hours on stage are what makes it all worthwhile. That’s the reason you’re doing it. It’s that kind of a communion, like a church, that you have with the people that show up for you. You have a one-time only live show experience with them. We don’t prerecord anything in our show, so people are like, “Wow, they made a mistake?” They’re impressed if you make a goof, or something happens that’s not perfect or auto tuned. Nowadays, it’s super original to be able to do the real thing. We’re proud that we know how to do it.

It sounds like you've always had this drive and ambition to pursue music. At what age did you realize how much music would impact your life? Can you go into the beginning of your story?
I started so young doing music, coming from a thoroughly musical background because of my mom and dad, choirs and bands, harmony singing with aunts and uncles. Grandpa and grandma, ukuleles and piano lessons. Everybody harmonizing around the fire at the beach on summer vacations. When the Beatles exploded onto the scene in ‘63 with their appearance on Ed
Sullivan, it was guitars. It had to be guitars from that moment forward. I realized this must have been my destiny. Even a gypsy fortune-teller once told me that.

Really?
“You are born to be a musician, preferably a stringed instrument. If you don’t play an instrument and you can’t express yourself creatively with either a string instrument or some kind of creative outlet, then you probably might go insane.” It’s like, “Well, I guess I’m on the right track.” It’s in the stars, so I’ll take it. I really have no other skills to speak of, so it’s a good thing I’m doing what I do.

Besides being influenced by The Beatles, were there any female musicians at that time that you looked up to?
When we wanted to get guitars and make bands, we wanted to be The Beatles, not marry them. Be songwriters and cause a scene wherever we went. Like they did in the movie, A Hard Day’s Night. The hysteria of their relationship with each other in that movie is great and that was our compass. There were no real women doing it at the time.

You had to start it off.
Yeah. In the late ‘60s, the whole Psychedelia era and British Invasion, those were big influences. Like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Elton John. Singer-songwriters from California like Jackson Brown, Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. There weren’t many women to really look up to. We didn’t care about gender, and still don’t, it’s not a gender-specific thing we’re trying to do. Like, “Well, you’re pretty good for a girl,” right? We figured being military brats, we had capabilities to do whatever we set our minds to. It was all those bands like Zeppelin that were the map that we followed. You could hear a lot of Ann’s vocalizing had the Elton John accent slipped in there a few times and Robert Plant. We loved singers like Dusty Springfield, but they were more ornamental singers who had arrangers, songwriters, and composers putting them on a stage. We were putting ourselves out there as writers, composers, and band leaders. I guess you could call us the OGs.

I love that you guys didn't care about gender and still don't. With this magazine, we are trying to be similar. As women, we can still do big things in the streets. I’m sure it’s a totally different world today compared to the '70s.
It’s a different world for the better. As far as being a girl these days, just to say, I used to really dig skating myself. I was never a great skater, but I loved skating a lot. I always preferred it. I was a kamikaze as a little kid on skates, and then I was careful after starting guitar. I think it’s very true about the way any culture treats its women is a sign of how cool the culture is. In our culture, women are allowed to have their own freedoms and pursue big macho dreams that normally would be relegated for men only. There’s still a lot of backwards thinking in this country, too, unfortunately. But I’m all for girls that know what they want without any flak from the guys.

Exactly. I'm sure having Ann by your side made things easier. A badass duo.
I feel completely lucky that way. One time I was sitting next to Chrissie Hynde, she was like, “You guys, you’re so fucking lucky you have each other. You can lean on each other, talk to each other, plus you’re even sisters, so you know each other. I’m just the only girl in my band of guys and it’s tough sometimes. You have to match the attitude and the toughness to feel heard and to feel part of it.” It was so interesting to hear her say that. I always felt lucky, having another woman to share it with and survive it with.

What was the transition like from the '70s to '80s and '80s to '90s musically? I'm a big fan of all those decades, but it's cool how different they all became.

It was a real interesting switcheroo culturally in the ‘80s after the mind-expanded ‘60s. With new wave and then MTV came along, the studio and recording technology changed to be more digital. The music fashion changed, with MTV, it became more about image making than it was about the music. That part was a way less comfortable fit, because we were not from LA. We were street urchins from Seattle, hippie girls. We didn’t have the big city, industry town mentality like LA. Which was all about what you’re going to wear, the makeup, the hair, the lighting. Of course, the mind-expanded drugs changed to cocaine at the time, so that became an ego-driven drug. All these things coincided simultaneously to create a strange ego-driven, image-driven cocaine-type of experience for us, which you could see in those videos that are kind of laughable today because the hair is just so huge.

I do love that era. I'm sure it's cool seeing videos of you from different times.
It is. You see a long, rich storied history of yourself as a kid in my 20s. Then in the ‘80s, it was such a poncy, poofed-up ‘80s kind of persona. Then in the ‘90s, we put on the combat boots again and went onto stages with our buddies from Seattle. Chris Cornell and Jerry Cantrell, those were our brothers from that era. We did a hometown band of friends called The Lovemongers without a record label or music management company. We just did gigs in small clubs in Seattle. Man, we were sort of anti-everything for a while there. We got a job to play at Lambada Day as Heart. We had our combat boots, and were like, “Yeah, man, it’s the ‘90s now.” But in South America, it wasn’t the ‘90s yet. So, we came out and did one of our new songs, which was stupid. We followed Selena who had a massive chart topper globally at the time. We did not come out playing Barracuda, which was a huge mistake. It was one of those times where you go, “Shit, people are leaving. People are walking out.”

Oh, no!
It was a hugely embarrassing moment in the ‘90s. We should have started with something familiar. It was one of those things you live, and you learn. Now it’s really cool to have done a lot of different projects like score music for film and different rock bands I was in without my sister. Bringing a lot of experienced musical knowledge back to the big oak tree called Heart. It’s been fun to be on stages with Ann again and I’m just blown away with her voice. It’s like, “Oh yeah. There’s that magical gift that she’s got. Oh my god.” I’ve played with some amazing players and singers of course too, but for a white chick, she’s an amazingly great singer. That doesn’t sound weird. It’s kind of a gift that rarely happens in white culture.

Being from Seattle, were you also involved with the movie Singles?
Yeah, I sure was. At the time, I was married to the writer and director, Cameron Crowe, and he has amazing ears. He’s always discovered stuff before it was out like Nirvana and Pearl Jam. He was already onto it before we made the film. My best friend for life, Kelly Curtis, was Pearl Jam’s manager when they were Mookie Blaylock and before Eddie Vedder, when they had Andrew Woods.

Mother Love Bone.
Yes, when we got back to Seattle after the ‘80s, that was really happening. It was cool to be from Seattle and meet this great new generation of musicians, a wonderful breed in that era, like Chris Cornell. Those guys were perfect examples of a communal experience. They would get up on stages and blend their bands like Temple of the Dog and Mother Love Bone. They were sharing their creativity with each other. What a great musical era it turned into and still is with Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam and so many great bands that are still rocking it in the best possible way.

When I finally got to work a Pearl Jam show, I passed Eddie in the hallway. I had to keep it professional, but I was like, "I love him so much.” Backstage, all their cases had Soundgarden and Mother Love Bone written on them. It was cool to see.
Yeah, as people, too, they’re rock fans. They have the fan’s ethic about them, even though they have millions of adoring fans themselves, but they keep the fan ethic in front because they’re fans of Neil Young and The Who. I’ve been to many great Pearl Jam shows when they opened for Neil Young. Songs like “State of Love and Trust” and “Do the Evolution.” Eddie Vedder’s latest solo album was cool I thought, too, and I’m looking forward to checking out the new one that’s coming.

I just rewatched the movie Singles since I haven’t seen it in a long time. I was introduced to Almost Famous in a high school class where they were explaining how music changes the mood of movie scenes. They played the Tiny Dancer scene on the bus. I was like, "What is this movie? I need to know everything about it." I went home and watched it immediately.
It’s such a great movie. I’m so happy I got to be part of that. It was, I think, Cameron’s finest work, among many great films that he’s done. The team that did the film was so fun. Billy Crudup, who played the guitar player, didn’t really know how to play. So, we had a rock school put together with Peter Frampton. We did a bunch of recording in the studio with the fictitious band called Stillwater. Me, my sister, and Cameron wrote a couple songs.

Did you write “Fever Dog”?
“Fever Dog”, which turned out cool. Heart still gets requests for “Fever Dog”. We’ve played it. The rock school was funny, and Billy Crudup was such a good actor. He was like, “Okay, so how do you hold a guitar?” Definitely slouch, don’t look uncomfortable, just look like it’s part of your body and it’s making you slouch. He goes, “What about the acid scene?” He had to do the acid scene on the roof of a house where he’s like, “I’m on drugs!”

Yes, "I'm a golden god!"
So, he asked me about being on acid before he did that scene. I said, “Yes, I have been on acid. And yes, it’s really mind opening if you’re in a comfortable setting with the right people and right music. You feel like your head has opened up like an observatory into the universe. You’re seeing the stars and planets and you’re in it and you’re part of God and everything else.” But I wouldn’t suggest anyone try it either, obviously, just so you print that. But under the proper circumstances or not at all.

Exactly what you said. The music and people must be right to do that.
It must be perfectly right. I told him, “You’re seeing all of this godliness and grand scale meaningfulness. You’re hallucinating like wood greens are moving around in colorful ways and everything looks beautiful and the electricity’s coming out the ends of your fingertips.” When he did the scene, you could see him doing exactly what I described. He’s got his fingers going out like there’s electricity coming out the ends of his hair and his fingers. I think today anyone that wanted to ever try it would be wise to do a very small microdose or mushroom microdosing instead of dropping acid because it’s too far to go there for too many hours.

Have you ever performed on stage while on psychedelics?
We never tripped on stage. A lot of late ‘60s bands obviously were high, and some couldn’t do it high. I tried to play guitar once when I was on acid. Then I tried to play piano. What I ended up doing, I realized later, I was hitting one note and just letting it ring. Hearing everything in the one note for a really long time. The sense of time and space being on a live rock stage with all those things to remember in the sequence of the song would never be. Unless you’re in maybe just a jam band that just plays two or three chords. It would never work for Heart.

Has it ever influenced any of your music?

Yeah, definitely. The way Kasey Musgraves talked about microdosing when she did Golden
Hour, for instance, which is such a perfect album. There’s a spirituality and godly lesson of kindness and humanity that you take away from psychedelic tripping experiences that factor hugely into writing songs and music. There’s the muse of creativity that you hope to catch with your butterfly net. Sometimes the muse visits you and you’re like, “Oh my god, I better write this down right now.” Right now, I’m writing a poem for Ann’s birthday, and it was like, “I’ve missed you a lot in my life.” So, there’s this thing about the muse that’s fueled by those kinds of out of body experiences and larger than life.

So, it just comes to you creatively and you don't know when?
You can wake up and it’ll be a melody in your head. I recently wrote a song like that. Like, what is that song? I thought I’d heard it before. It turned into a song called “A Million Goodbyes” that I ended up recording with Ben Gibbard of Death Cab for Cutie. We’re producing and going to release it soon. I think you’re born with that stuff. You don’t have to take a drug trip to get there. It’s part of the Milky Way that you came from as a child. I just met a new baby recently, and that’s my first grandchild. You see babies coming into the world for the first time ever, they don’t know shit yet. Thank god they don’t because you don’t want them to have to know until later. They’re hardwired with joy. It makes you want to believe that there’s something in the universe where souls are free from their bodies or whatever it is up there or out there that we don’t know everything about. It comes through the muse and music on stages and in recordings. The way music affects us all, is a real magical thing and can’t be quantified or qualified, but I’ll be chasing it as long as I know how.

That's crazy to think about. When I was working shows, going out on the side stage, watching the musicians interact with the crowd, was such a euphoric feeling.
There’s a whole energy dynamic that exists, especially in a big space like an arena, where it’s cavernous and filled with all the people and energy. The music itself too and the creating of the electricity being exchanged, the human output and intake. It’s indescribable, but I’d give it a try now.

So, after explaining to Billy what it was like taking acid. What did you think after watching the scene?
We would watch the dailies where you see the scenes and choose what you want to keep. I was like, “Oh my god. He completely nailed it.” The guitar playing, too. To me, that’s such a perfect film. We got into such rich detail of just the backstage areas and the road cases and how there’s always some exhausted roadie asleep on a case. The nicknames they have. It’s a beautiful love letter to rock and roll, that movie. I watch it about once a year at least, just to remember. It all came together, it’s kind of rare when it works that well.

Did Heart ever have any band-aids or groupies?
One of the more frequently asked questions is, do you guys have male groupies? You’re female, you’re so unusual. You’re such a novelty to be women in rock. The guy groupies were sweet, nerdy guys. They would be little polite guys, trembling hands with a gift for you. “I wrote a poem for you. I have these flowers and held them all day.” Giving you a silk scarf and a poem or something romantic. We’ve always attracted a lot of gay guys and gay women with our band because we cross gender lines all over the place. Those groupie guys were so funny and so cute.

Was it weird having people be so nervous to talk to you?
It’s weird, we used to do a lot of meet-and-greets before the show. People would spend good money to have a picture and a moment to talk to you. Some were so worked up and shaking, “This is the best day of my life.” And you’re like, “No, this can’t be the best day. Don’t tell me that. You can’t tell me it’s all downhill from here.”

You were making people's days.
It’s cool, but also weird because you feel like “How can I be good enough for this reaction?” But it means so much to know that the music means so much. They say, “I survived losing a loved one. I didn’t kill myself because of this song,” or all those things songs mean to them. There it is again, that magical spiritual grounding sensibility that the muse brings to everyone.

I once passed Robert Plant backstage, and I got to stand side stage during his performance. I just started bawling because I love him so much. Who would be your number one person that you would be nervous to meet?
Oh, wow. Well, I think it would be John Lennon, which is an impossibility unfortunately. I got to meet Paul McCartney. I never met George, and I’ve been in rooms where Ringo was. I was too nervous to go say hello, but Paul was exactly who you wanted him to be. The sweetest,
disarming, charming, genius, musician guy.

Was that insane for you with The Beatles being a huge influence growing up and seeing them on TV?
Yeah, it was. I was talking to Paul, I was acting as cool and nonchalant as I could possibly pull off, but obviously I was flipping out to be in the same space as him. These are the molecules that have a mass to become Paul McCartney right next to me. I’m like, “Okay, I’m not going to freak out right now, I’m just going to be as cool as a cucumber.” The silent scream, but always cool when you meet someone you admire and they’re not an asshole. One time Bob Dylan came to the condo where I lived with Cameron for an interview in the ‘90s. I was too nervous to come downstairs to meet him. I felt like, “Oh, he must think I’m an asshole from the ‘80s, a sellout, big hair, has been, dinosaur rock band person.” I just couldn’t face meeting him in my own dwelling and hid upstairs. But being next to Paul was insane.

If you were to put on a record right now, what would it be? 
I would put on Houses of the Holy right now. It’s like a great film you want to see again, like Almost Famous. It’s a lot of the sense memory of when it first came out too, when you first heard it in your bedroom. I still play it when I work out. I play albums in their entirety all the time. When I warm up vocalizing, I play them to sing to. A lot of Elton John and Kasey Musgraves, but there will only ever be one Zeppelin.

When I listen to Zeppelin, I always picture what it would be like in 1969. Putting their first album on and hearing “Good Times Bad Times" for the first time ever.
A scene like that, I was a teenager probably in junior high at a friend’s house, and my girlfriend was making out with a guy downstairs in the basement. They had a Zeppelin album on, it was the drum solo of a “Whole Lotta Love,” the long-extended trip out section. That was the first time I heard anything from that album. I was like, “Whoa. People turn their lights down and make out to albums like this.”

Do you have any aspirations for these upcoming years?
The prize is being in Heart again and have a lot of people show up for it. Feeling that experience on big rocker-size stages again. If I get too old, then I just want to continue to do music. I’m way into acoustic stuff right now, but then I get into electric, so I could do all kinds of musicals, guitar-based music stuff. When I have an assignment, I’ll get off my ass and I really work at music.